Johanan Raatz on Dec 10, 2007 at 01:17 PM:

Excellent points Dan.

“How is it fair that people who came here illegally should have the same rights and benefits as those who are here legally?”

This is the part that get's me the most. Why should non-citizen's recieve citizen's benefits? It makes no sense to me. Social programs within the US are hard enough to maintain as it is. We can't afford to be give away money like it's candy to every random person who happens to come in the country illegally.

Nicole Morales on Dec 10, 2007 at 01:25 PM:

Dan Pesch and Immigration...there are so many comments I would love to make. I will try and keep it civil.

1 - Everyone in this country is an immigrant, if you have lost your heritage and native language that is your fault, those who keep in touch with it should not be forced to forget it for "Americans"

2 - To refer to human beings as a "flood" and objects rather than people is insulting, if it were done to Americans it wouldn't be tolerated but if it's done to immigrants, who cares right? It's pathetic how ignorant one can be.

3 - Latinos (Not just Mexicans!!) are not the only immigrants, Russia, European and Asian immigrants exist as well, do you ask them to stop speaking their native language.

4 - Thin skin? Just because Dan Pesch has no common decency for others doesn't mean people have thin skin, you Dan Pesch are ignorant and pathetic.

What you are saying is not the truth, many factors have been left out. You should be ashamed. By the way, you are an immigrant Dan, you need to accept that and accept that this country is a melting pot. If you don't like that, oh well.

Johnny Noname on Dec 10, 2007 at 05:44 PM:

Dan, a couple of flaws in our argument. Your taxes go to a lot of people outside of this country that do not pay into our system. Have you ever heard of the war on terror? Or the surge that our military is currently in. We are putting a lot of money into those countries for food, education, police training, building, and plethora of other things. Somehow this is ok, but illegal immigrants are not. Another flaw: When a lot of illegal immigrants get a job, they use a fake social security number, so that they can get paid. Interesting fact, when they get paid, they too get taxes taken out of their pay checks. Shouldn't they then get the same service that we legal immigrants get? They pay as much as we do if not more. Plus, what about the people that don't work and are natural born American citizens, should they get the same services? Also, one of the services that our taxes provide is for medical attention. When a doctor receives their license to practice medicine, they take an oath. They promise to give the best care to anyone and everyone, even if they can't afford it, the doctor has to help them. When person doesn't pay, guess who foots the bill, you and I do. But, since these illegal immigrants don't deserve the same rights, I guess if they get into a serious accident, they should be left die. Am I right on assuming that’s what you want? Here is another problem with your article. The illegal immigrants are normally taking jobs that no American wants to do. Also, since they are taking them for a lowered cost, the fruit you buy at the grocery store is cheaper. This creates a flow of money, which in turns increases our economic growth. For every action there is an equal or greater reaction. Mr. Pesch, sometimes when there is a flood, it is cheaper and more effective to let it run its course.
I am not saying we should open our borders and let everyone and anyone in, but there here, let us find a way for them to get onto the path of LEGAL citizenship. It's kind of like we just added a pond into our yard. Why get rid of it, it adds a very beautiful aspect to it. Just like the immigrants into this country, legal or illegal, they make this country what it is. I will leave you this, are any of us truly legal immigrants? Who was here first? In the south, who did the territory belong to first?

p.s. Just in case you don't know the answers to the questions. Leif Ericson was here before Christopher Columbus, and before Leif, many different tribes of Native American Indians. So technically we invaded their country and took over their land. (Maybe karma is taking is course!) Along a majority of the border the land originally belonged to different tribes of Native Americans and Mexicans.

Johanan Raatz on Dec 10, 2007 at 07:50 PM:

"1 - Everyone in this country is an immigrant,"

But NOT everyone in this country is an ILLEGAL immigrant. There is an appropriate way to immigrate if one wants. People should be using this means and not be breaking the law wily-nily.

"if you have lost your heritage and native language that is your fault,"

Retaining ones culture is good and American, but that culture must be mixed into the melting pot, if it isn't it creates the mosaic variety of multicuturalism which is detrimental to the nation as a whole.

"2 - To refer to human beings as a "flood" and objects rather than people is insulting,"

Yeah I know, but that is irrelevant as far as political science goes. From a political science point of view the illegal immigration situation is a problem and it doesn't really matter how you view the problem so long as you can find an expedient way to solve it.

"3 - Latinos (Not just Mexicans!!) are not the only immigrants, Russia, European and Asian immigrants exist as well,"

I think what he is getting at is that many illegal immigrants from Mexico do not take time to properly learn English the way Russian European or Asian immigrants do. It's fine to speak your native tongue just so long as you also speak the lingua franca, as it is in the national interest to have an established lingua franca. Without one society becomes disjointed and doesn't work well.

"4 - Thin skin? Just because Dan Pesch has no common decency for others doesn't mean people have thin skin,"

Whether or not Dan as common decency for others is besides the point. One should treat civil discourse in a logical dispassionate manner, and not allow emotions to cloud their judgment. If he says something you disagree with tell him what it is and state reasons why. There is no reason to elevate an already emotional situation.

Dan Pesch's Subconscience on Dec 13, 2007 at 04:09 PM:

I agree with Nicole.

Remember when the Europeans massacred the Native Americans, stole their land, and disregarded all the treaties made with them? Remember when we stole half of Mexico's land in the Mexican war? This nation was built on illegality and needless killing- period.

"Retaining ones culture is good and American, but that culture must be mixed into the melting pot, if it isn't it creates the mosaic variety of multicuturalism which is detrimental to the nation as a whole" WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? Who's to say people need to assimilate into the culture or lack thereof subjectively called "American"? Did that work out for the Native Americans- didn't think so.

"many illegal immigrants from Mexico do not take time to properly learn English the way Russian European or Asian immigrants do" That's a sterotype if ever there was one. Find some evidence if you can. THE USA DOESN'T HAVE AN OFFICIAL LANGUAGE, the last I checked.

People are real, national borders are not, therefore they have priority, unless we are going to continue debating in the realm of idealism, and not take into consideration the concrete reality, historical context, and actual life stories of those trying to make a life for themselves while the US government is unresponsive and unresponsible.

Vanessa on Dec 13, 2007 at 11:42 PM:

First off I would like to say that maybe you should do your research a little bit more. It seems to mean that this article is very opinionated. If you are going to let everyone know how you think and say that you are right about it then maybe you should back that opinion up quite abit with research and proof.

Next, I don't think that you are really thinking this through. Maybe you should take a look at where you are from. Have you bothered to ask your parents what they are and where your ancestors have come from????? YOU ARE NOT AN AMERICAN!!!!! YES, YOU'RE RIGHT YOU LIVE IN AMERICA BUT DO YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TO CALL YOURSELF AN AMERICAN EVEN THOUGH EVERY PERSON IN YOUR FAMILY MOST LIKELY WERE NOT ALL BORN HERE.

I think it's funny that you say, "we can start turning American jobs back over to Americans". Who here is a true American????!!! Last time I checked that meant, you live by the consitution, you abide by the ammendments provided for us, you live the "american way" etc. I believe that's what every person here in the U.S is doing including immigrants. So then aren't we ALL Americans and immigrants since our ancestors came here for that reason of the "american way"? Well they did just that and that is why you are here today.

One more thing, have you ever traveled to another country???!!! If so, have you sat down before going on your trip and learned the complete language of the country you are going to? I bet you haven't...yeah maybe a few phrases here and there, but otherwise I'm sure you expected for the people there to speak english so that your life can be easier on your trip. Now would that contradict what you said about, "there should be a requirement for anyone wishing to stay here, and that is to learn English". Yeah I think it would. On the tax dollars part, Should my tax dollars go to the old people that live in retirement homes and who recieve medicare, like yours do? Because I'm sure they are immigrants from all kinds of countries and are sad that they have poor pathetic grandchildren like you who are ignorant and obviously don't care at taking a look at family history before they assume they know what they are talking about.

So before you decide to run your mouth again on a subject that you clearly have no clue on come up with a better example than using a flood to explain an immigration problem. P.S the problem is people like you who don't have a problem with immigration, it's with Hispanics overall. If your problem was really with immigration then you would be talking about Russians, Asians, and Europeans too among other races!

Oh yeah and ask your parents if your grandparents or greatgrandparents ever spoke a different language. How did they feel when people like you were against them???

Aldiaz on Dec 14, 2007 at 12:48 PM:

wow.. are you kidding me right now.. flood?? What we should have done to stop the FLOOD was to stop your ancestor from immigrating. Yes Immigrating. (How do you like that answer?) They were not born here they IMMIGRATED from some other country. How ignorant can a person be? However I do understand that it's not right to come here illegally.

Omar on Dec 14, 2007 at 12:52 PM:

My dear Dan:

Where should I begin? You have made quite a few points and at the same time, I feel like every point you have made has a counterpoint to it, therefore invalidating the point you have made.

First of all, I think that one of the only reasons you decided to write about Immigration as a flood, and as you editorial is to get some attetion. I mean lately immigration has been a hot issue, so this is somewhat of your 5 minutes of fame kind of thing, right? So we'll give you what you want and pay attention to your oh so misinformed and opinionated article.

Lets being with the amount of stereotypes you have in there. Immigrants dont pay taxes, they come here willing to work for a lower salary, tracking down immigrants and send them back, your taxes benefit immigrants and the fact that immigrants don't speak english.

Lets start with the paying taxes issue, shall we? As mentioned by Johnny to work you need a social security number and with that the government takes out taxes, call it FICA, Federal, State, Medicare, Medicaid, whatever it is they take those out. Now since the immigrant is not going to claim those or ask for those when they retire, for obvious reasons, the government has this file that they stash all that money away. Neither you, I or any person benefits from this, is kind of like an "extra" flow of millions if not billions of dollars into federal reserves. Now, you ask why hasnt the government done anything to stop this?... Well would you say no to extra millions of dollar every year? I dont think so. So your government, our government allows this situation for personal reasons. Its a good-evil, I would say. You keep immigrants in the shadows, you keep their money, we are all happy. So before you analyze the immigration issue from a anti-immigrant prospective, think of why would the oh mighty powerful american government, the one that invades entire countries, and rebuilds them (say Japan, Korea, etc) cant do a major house clean up?...Think about that one.

Now, willing to work for a lower salary. Believe me we all, as an immigrant, want the most we can get. But then again corporate america does whatever it can to drive down costs and drive up prices. So they could easily check for papers as they say, but they dont. They offer you a dollar less, ignore your "situation" and offer you a job. And as an example of when they closed the borders in California, the big farmers met with Gov. Arnold and told them to let them in again, because noone, did I say NOONE, was going to take those jobs, meaning less production, therefore, a shortage on food. Now i dont think you would like to buy an apple for $5 and only have access to them once a year would you?

So you say track them down and send them back. Alright fair enough, why dont you make a line too, gather all 12 or 13 million of them I believe who are here illegaly. Lets make a huge line outside of the White House, lets see how well they can handle that. But I know you are just seeking for solutions. And just like the immigrants that walked through Ellis Island, and the ones that came in waves, call it the British, Irish, Polish, Russians, Italians and now Latinos, lets create a solution. Lets pave a wave for them to integrate with society. Lets give those who are willing and capable of becoming an asset to this great American society to do so. They did it before, they can do it again. Nothing new there. And just by your last name we can tell you are no true american, because noone is, unless you are American Indian. So I bet your ancestors were glad the American government at that time was understanable of their situation back home to open their arms and welcome them in this great country you now call home.

Your taxes and immigrants. Here comes a touchy subject i believe, because there are community center, private and public, that help immigrants establish themselves. Also other organizations and such, but I wouldnt say is quite your tax dollars. I would say that the lazy American Citizen who has everything to succeed in life and in their country and doesnt do it, and lives off of welfare, should be more of a concern to you than an immigrant who works 12 to 14 hour days to support their family. Or how about, like mentioned before, all your tax dollars that go overseas to rebuild countries that you might not even visit in your lifetime. Or how about all the unnecessary spending the government does. I think that the little help immigrants get, or the benefits they receive are only a way of seeing their tax dollars in action.

Last but not least, immigrants dont speak english. I wish I had a dollar for everytime I heard that. First of all, thats a lie! I am an immigrant, I speak english fluently, or i think i do. Forgive my grammatical errors but noone is perfect, even an american born student could make them. But saying that is just closed minded in a way. My friend, a natural born american citizen, her grandma is german she speaks a little english, thick accent, i dont hear anyone complaining. My mom has the same problem, but oh no, noone can understand her...is only a matter on how you look at things. People want to learn english, they want to be able to communicate, but it takes some longer than others as easy as that. Or can you learn a language over night? Because if you can, props to you my friend!

So just to connect a couple dots. The american government has everything to solve this problem, on however way they see fit. Why they dont do it? Good question. Now think of this, Corporate american wants to drive down costs, immigrants provide that, then you have lobbyists in Washington who defend that cause, Washington ignores certain things and they are all happy. Mr. Dan, if you really think about it, this problem is not today's, is not yesterdays or tomorrows, this problem is a historical issue for this great nation. Immigration has always been there, is just that this time they have allowed it to get so big that it is almost getting out of their hands, and that imposes a problem. At the end, we are all only victims of the system. All of us, immigrants or not.

Joel Ramirez on Dec 14, 2007 at 01:02 PM:

Regardless of stance the problem with this debate is how dehumanized these immigrants have become. Hell, you likened them to a natural disaster. Let's ignore for a second that this country's agriculture and produce market would take a huge hit without illegal immigration, or that they pay taxes that they can not later claim, I truly feel this whole argument is nothing but an attack on Hispanics in general. First off illegal immigrants DON'T recieve the same rights as citizens, I don't even know where you get this idea. From my understanding is most states you need legit papers to receive federal aid. Do you know who does get aid? Their children who ARE citizens. It angers me that you likened it to a flood damaging your property. It's an incredibly stupid statement by your part, especially since I guarantee that illegal immigration has not impacted you in one or another, so to liken it to having your home damaged is ridiculous. Do I feel there should be an open border? No. Should there be reform? Yes. There are illegal immigrants here, and they provide to the economy and because of their status can't take out of it as is implied.

Now the whole language issue. Did you forget that this country does not have an official language? Yes, English is the traditional language, but the issue is not even nearly as severe as you let it on to be. Hispanics tend to live in areas surrounded by other Hispanics which leads to them not having the necessity to learn English. Now, you must also keep in mind that this only usually happens with older immigrants settling in the United States for the first time. Their children learn English and often times translate for the parents. There is already a penalty for not learning English, that being the jobs and opportunities that are available to them. Those that need to learn English will do so, and those that don't are usually in the work-force doing manual labor. What? Do you think one day we'll have a huge split in the country when a non-English speaking senator gets voted into office? It won't happen. Those people who don't learn English is because they simply don't need to, it's not a necessity. Those who want to do more than manual labor however will learn it however because there simply is no upward mobility in this country without knowing English. Do you think the original European immigrants came here and learned English immediately? No, of course not. Want to know why? For the same reasons, they lived in ethnic enclaves and communities where they could communicate with themselves. Their children learned English and after many generations that original language was lost. The problem now is that we don't have a constant stream of European immigrants like we used to, so Russians and Germans of this day and age don't have the luxury of large Russian or German communities so they are FORCED to learn English simply to survive. As far as immigration goes Mexican immigration is relatively new and a lot more concentrated than other immigrations, which means we steal have that first or second layer with a ton of Spanish speakers. Eventually when it dies down and through generations English is incorporated the number of people who only speak Spanish will die down drastically. This is simply history repeating itself but for whatever reason people like yourself want to disregard the events and situations this country was built on and want to treat these Mexican immigrants as little more than locust. I guess legality is only good when it's convenient huh? I can guarantee you that you own copyrighted material that you did not pay for, yet you want to bring up legality as an issue? And like someone else said, it was ok to come and take the land from the Mexicans and Native Americans, but a person comes "illegally" into this country to better their situations and we then decide to become law-abiding people? I mean not even 60 years ago it was illegal for a black person to use white facilities..what does that go to show? Just because something is a law doesn't mean it can't be rooted in racism.

To be quite frank this country was built on the back of immigrants. Do you think the industrial revolution would have happened without the influx of immigrants that came into this country? These "Illegal" immigrants come into this country to better their lives, to live the "American Dream", they do back-breaking work that many of us in our middle-class existence would NEVER do, they come in and help support the base of our economy yet we liken them to little more than locusts. It's easy for us with our cushy lives to sit here and discuss illegal immigration. We're not the ones literally risking our lives so that our family can have a better future. Seriously, if you were in a situation with a horrible economy, a corrupt government, surrounding by poverty, and to the north of you was the land of opportunity, your ticket out of misery, you would take their laws into consideration? You want to tell me you wouldn't risk it all to get into that country legal or not? Of course not, it's too far removed from our comfortable American lives to even consider.

Joel Ramirez on Dec 14, 2007 at 01:17 PM:

"Now for the process of fixing what has been damaged. This is what I consider to be the effect of having thousands of people pour over the borders and take our jobs for decreased pay, which ultimately does no good for the American society seeing as how they don’t even pay taxes. I mean how could they if they’re not even in the system? After everything has been cleaned up, we can start turning American jobs back over to Americans, ultimately benefiting the economy and helping to decrease unemployment."

That's hilarious, it really is.

Fun Fact: Illegal Immigrants work with fake documents and even though they are not in the system THEY PAY TAXES ALL THE SAME. You know how many reputable companies hire illegal immigrants with false papers? They aren't paid under the table, they get checks just like anyone and have taxes discounted just like anyone. The kicker is since they DON'T have real papers they can't CLAIM taxes, so guess what? It's money the government keeps! Novel concept, I know.

And of course, the classic argument, "they come here and take our jobs!"

Yes, blame the immigrants who do bottom of the barrel work for the unemployment rates. I mean, it's a lot more convenient than blaming the large corporations who outsource their work to Asia effectively removing jobs from the country? I mean why blame Wal-Mart for creating a loss of jobs when you can blame the illegal immigrant? I mean screw that guy trying to better his life and the lives of his family! We need to support the American citizen corporate executive who pads his pockets at the expense of American jobs! Hey, the American economy! Illegals are ruining that! Nevermind that the US has a HUGE deficit yearly because of an open trade agreement with China that allows companies like Wal-Mart to sell their merchandise for peanuts! I mean who needs American merchandise? Why stay here and pay a guy 14 dollars an hour to assemble televisions when a guy in China will do it for a quarter? Wait, what's that? Outsourcing is forcing American companies to either follow suit or shut down? You don't say!

Face it, blaming immigrants for the economy is nothing but a veil for idiots so they don't see the Government and large Corporations making sweet love to each other.

Omar Velaochaga on Dec 14, 2007 at 02:10 PM:

Amen Joel!

Anonymous on Dec 14, 2007 at 02:49 PM:

I have to agree wholeheartedly with the previous posts. I don't know if you realize this but there are so many illegal immigrants working in America that if we were to demand documents from every one of them and sent them back to their home countries that our economy would NOT get better. Our currency would be just about as worthless as the DeutschMark was before Hitler fixed the hyperinflation problem before WWII and millions of people would go immediately into poverty and these are "Americans," as you so call those who are not here illegally. What's next...? You're going to be trying to make the perfect Aryan race?

Carla H. on Dec 14, 2007 at 05:31 PM:

First off, I would like to comment on your comment about "My taxes should under no circumstance benefit someone who is not a U.S. citizen" I would like to ask what benefits are these? The majority of illegal immigrants don't receive benefits, they come here and work without any sort of insurance, and they have no health care coverage, no 401K's, no union rights, or any other sort of "benefit". So believe me when I say that your taxes are in no way benefiting any of these illegal immigrants, rest assured your tax money is safe in the governments hands. My next point was on the second part of that quote "The law is the law, and exceptions shouldn’t be made for people who aren’t supposed to be here" People who aren't supposed to be here? So people who are greatly contributing to our economy and helping to make the cost of many of your fine produce at Pick n' Save affordable to you? Hmm..Well if they aren't "supposed" to be here maybe we as a country should change that outrageous idea, and possibly welcome these economic contributors. Now I am not saying that there shouldn't be limits or a control on immigration, because everything should have some kind of plan behind it. But I do think that the illegal immigrants should be here and am thankful they are. I would also like to comment that not "everyone" has learned to speak English. I find that there are many people of various other nationalities that have still not mastered the English language. For example the many Chinese, German, Italian, and Russian legal-immigrants just to name a few that are here but do not speak English. I think that this is just another way for people to attack the illegal immigrants. And I can't imagine what kind of language barriers you face in the U.S... I think it is the immigrants that face the language barriers being here, not you. Lastly, I would just like to comment on your final comment that I don't think you should worry about the illegal-immigrants not paying taxes if they are in fact taking those job that Americans so proudly turn-down if they are working for DECREASED PAY, as u put it yourself. Are they really taking your job, when these illegal immigrants that can't speak English can much less write for a newspaper? Or are they taking the jobs that so many Americans are embarrassed to admit they do, such as flip burgers at McDonald's or clean toilets in a high-school, or bus tables when the busser is around 30yrs old. Are those the types of jobs you are worried are being taken from you, because I don't know if you can speak English I'm sure you can find a better job. These illegal immigrants that are taking these jobs and working them proudly are helping the American society because if Americans won't do them somebody has to. That's right and if the illegal immigrants aren't in the system than they have no protection under the law another result of your taxes, so don't worry that’s not benefiting them at all. Are your taxes paying their $5/hr landscaping job, I think not. And I don't think whether the person doing the American job, matters whether they are American, Indonesian, Chinese, or Italian. As long as the job is getting done it is benefiting America. Especially, when the illegal-immigrants are spending this hard earned money on appliances, radios, food, etc. These bare life necessities aren't being imported from other countries and shipped to their front door step. These illegal immigrants are going to Best Buy and Wal-Mart and buying big-screen TV’s, X-box's, etc and returning the money back into the American economy. I continue to say I think your American money is safe in America. Unless, maybe you should be concerned whether your tax money is being given away like candy to the Iraqi people, Afghanistan people, or some other far away country that most American's can't even find on a map. My solution to the problem very briefly is, if all these illegal-immigrants PRIMARILY, NOT ALL are from Mexico then why don't we figure out why it is their leaving their home country to come here to work. And no it is not because America is a better country. I think perhaps we are more humane and just to our workers. Perhaps, that is what these illegal-immigrants are in search of, a job that pays well and provides benefits. So why not as American we help out our fellow Neighbor, Mexico whom we share such a large boarder with and help them to become a more productive and efficient working country. This is not an insult on Mexico it is just that I think maybe they could use some of our help. Perhaps basing some of our large manufacturing plants in a neighboring country would provide jobs for these illegal-immigrants and then they wouldn't travel so hard to find decent work, because it would already be in their home country. And then the "FLOOD" would end, maybe even some of the job-less Americans would flee to Mexico to find work, because I'm nearly positive the job at McDonald's would still not draw them in. Trust me when I when I say that the majority of the illegal immigrants don’t come here because they want to party, take your tax money and go to Disney land, they want to work and make money and provide a better life for their children and family, is that a crime?

Johanan Raatz on Dec 14, 2007 at 08:45 PM:

"Remember when the Europeans massacred the Native Americans, stole their land,"

Yes there were some instances of Europeans mistreating Native Americans. However over the "stealing the land" claim the land was mostly unused and was not legitimately claimed in the first place before the Europeans came over(read John Locke on a detailed explanation for this one).

"Remember when we stole half of Mexico's land in the Mexican war?"

? We didn't steal it. Texas wanted to cede from Mexico and Mexico didn't allow it. That's when we defended Texas's right to cede from Mexico.

"This nation was built on illegality and needless killing- period."

Not at all. The US was established in a perfectly legal fashion. Tell me what part of America was added to the union illegally? If it was illegal than why does the government legally recognize these areas as states?

"People are real, national borders are not, therefore they have priority, unless we are going to continue debating in the realm of idealism,"

All legitimate debate happens in the "realm of idealism." If an argument can't be won in terms of ideas then it can not be won.

To me pragmatism put over idealism is distasteful.

"That's a sterotype if ever there was one. Find some evidence if you can. THE USA DOESN'T HAVE AN OFFICIAL LANGUAGE, the last I checked."

Well no one is saying it is universal but it is based on personal experience, and yes we do have an official language. That was voted on a long time ago. It was a competition between English and German and English won by one vote. A nation benefits from a lingua franca as such it is in the national interest to maintain one.

"WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? Who's to say people need to assimilate into the culture or lack thereof subjectively called "American"? Did that work out for the Native Americans- didn't think so."

Who's to say? INS for one thing. It's not in the state's interest to have mosaic-form multiculturalism. The classes involved for becoming a citizen are all about assimilating the culture so that the new citizen's can blend into the society and have the proper background to be able to vote and get involved in civic affairs.

And another thing, we're not talking about Native American's here. We are discussing whether or not the government should allow people into the country en mass if they don't assimilate.

Paola on Dec 14, 2007 at 10:46 PM:

This is just crazy, here we are arguing because of an article and the university is trying to boast that it's the most diverse in the UW-system... I must say that this editorial is biased, -However, there should be a requirement for anyone wishing to stay here, and that is to learn English. - OK Tell me when you go into a chinese restaurant do they talk a perfect english? NO But they are here legally. -This can be achieved by tracking down the illegal immigrants already in the U.S. and sending them back to where they came from.- Ok so where do we start polish people, italians, russians etc. Illegal? Seriously what type of justice has there been in this nation, when caucasian get away with murder, when latins who want to be politically active are supressed. This nation welcomes the immigrant like it or not If you don't believe me ask the statue of liberty... “Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore; Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!” Like others have said before me undocumented immigrants do pay taxes and in some cases they can even claim them that is if they have an ITIN Individual Taxpayer Identification Number IRS issues ITINs to individuals who are required to have a U.S. taxpayer identification number but who do not have, and are not eligible to obtain a Social Security Number (SSN) from the Social Security Administration (SSA). ITINs are issued regardless of immigration status because both resident and nonresident aliens may have U.S. tax return and payment responsibilities under the Internal Revenue Code. HUMMMMMMMMMM Anyway instead of talking all the bad stuff and the "FLOOD" these people are causing think back to your roots how would you have felt if somebody was just like you when your ancestors came...

PS. Only first generation immigrants have somewhat of an issue with language. It's proven that second and third generation immigrants grasp the language better.

PPS Who cares if English is the official language Puerto Rico is a commonwealth of the US and their official languages are Spanish and English what do you think they speak over there.

Here is some info. The vote was in May, 2006 in the United States Senate and was for The Comprehensive Immigration and Reform Act of 2007.

An amendment to the bill was added just days before the vote that would have declared English as the official language of the United States and, among other things, would mean that the government would not have to provide services in any language other than English. One of the purposes of the amendment was to "promote the patriotic integration of prospective U.S. citizens."

The bill was defeated by a vote of 61 to 34 with 4 not voting.

Joel on Dec 14, 2007 at 10:53 PM:

"Yes there were some instances of Europeans mistreating Native Americans. However over the "stealing the land" claim the land was mostly unused and was not legitimately claimed in the first place before the Europeans came over(read John Locke on a detailed explanation for this one)"

Yeah..."some" instances. That's hilarious, talk about an understatement. I really love your arguments though, since they didn't own the land in a European contractual form of law it's ok to come over, enslave them, have them move at our convenience, and then slowly destroy them through diseases as we systematically destroy their culture. But apparently land is up for grabs if you personally feel it's underutilized. Good philosophy, I hope homeless people don't start adopting it.

"We didn't steal it. Texas wanted to cede from Mexico and Mexico didn't allow it. That's when we defended Texas's right to cede from Mexico."

That's a very American and rose-colored way to paint history. How about the fact that Mexico gave land grants to encourage emigration to THEIR land and instead the "Texans" decided to take the land for their own and turn it into a state. Mexico set simple guidelines in order to get land that the Texans decided they weren't going to follow, and yet they took the land and turned it into a state while it still belonged to Mexico. Please tell me when "taking something that isn't yours and then claiming it for yourself" stopped being the definition for stealing.

"Not at all. The US was established in a perfectly legal fashion. Tell me what part of America was added to the union illegally? If it was illegal than why does the government legally recognize these areas as states?"

Of course, the same way Hitler killing millions of Jews during the Holocaust was perfectly legal, the German government recognized it as a legal and fair act. Goes to show how faulty your logic is, huh? This isn't a question about legality, but morality, and if you tell me with a straight face that this country was built morally then you my friend are an idiot, excuse the ad-hominem. If you need further proof simply look at Andrew Jackson. Seriously, manifest destiny? They pushed millions of Indians west so they could take their land that would later become "states"...and why, because God ordained us to?

I didn't even want to keep reading your post, figured if you were going to start with such imbecilic arguments I shouldn't even waste my time reading the rest.

Joel on Dec 14, 2007 at 10:58 PM:

Against my better judgement I actually kept reading, and my initial assumption that it would be a bunch of ignorant drivel was right.

"And another thing, we're not talking about Native American's here. We are discussing whether or not the government should allow people into the country en mass if they don't assimilate."

Assimilate. Good word. Except your definition in this case is "adapt to white, protestant culture". Now, if that is your definition of assimilate then you're right, they are doing a horrible job of it.

Hispanics are the 2nd largest group in the Unites States, so I would say for the most part they are assimilating just fine. They come here, they work, and instead of using it all just to survive like in Mexico they come here and work and go buy consumer goods. They come here and become consumers! If that isn't assimilation I don't know what is.

Yetzenia G. on Dec 15, 2007 at 11:22 AM:

the first thing that somebody said about giving the jobs back to the americans ok......but i suggest everybody to watch the movie "a day without mexicans"..... it's not that great but it gives you an idea how it could turn out if "we the americans" deport the immigrants to back where they came from everybody will be lost.

reality check on Dec 15, 2007 at 11:32 AM:

dan pesch is a student senator. the logic he uses here is the same that he applies to decisions that affect students at uwm.

Johanan Raatz on Dec 15, 2007 at 05:39 PM:

dan pesch is a student senator. the logic he uses here is the same that he applies to decisions that affect students at uwm.

Yes I know. It's a good thing he's a senator then because the logic he's using here is excellent. It's about time someone pointed out the obvious, instead of getting all squeamish about dealing with illegal immigration as it actually is.

Shame on people who keep pushing political correctness on this issue when doing so could have serious consequences to our economy and society.

Johanan Raatz on Dec 15, 2007 at 06:14 PM:

"Yeah..."some" instances. That's hilarious, talk about an understatement."

Well in reality a lot of the demonization of "european white males" in regards to early American history is just a bunch of political correctness propaganda. I wouldn't put to much stock in it. In reality people (including Europeans) behave in both good and bad ways. So to demonize "European colonialists" as such is inaccurate. In this regard you have also to remember all of the benefits that we brought to the new world. Many of the Native Americans lacked the modern medicine that we brought over as well as many of the other benefits of civilization. So to say that our influence in the New World was mostly negative is very biased.

"I really love your arguments though, since they didn't own the land in a European contractual form of law it's ok to come over, enslave them, have them move at our convenience,"

Enslaving them? We didn't enslave them. Slavery was something that was done exclusively to people imported from Africa.

"and then slowly destroy them through diseases"

We can't help what diseases we brought over when we didn't even know what they were much less how they were transmitted at the time. It isn't fair to judge people for something they had no control over.

"as we systematically destroy their culture."

No it got melted into our society much like all of the other cultural influences that have merged into the melting pot of America.

"But apparently land is up for grabs if you personally feel it's underutilized."

It was up for grabs because no one had a legal claim on it. If it was properly utilized it would have an infrastructure built into it which would include a legal system under which people could buy and sell it. Just read some John Locke you'll understand.

"Mexico gave land grants to encourage emigration to THEIR land and instead the "Texans" decided to take the land for their own and turn it into a state."

Except the Texan's tried to cede in a legal manner but were not allowed to because the Mexican government abolished there own constitution for the purpose of defying the will of the Texan people. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_Revolution The Texan revolution was a perfectly legitimate in Lockean philosophy, was supported by the US and can not be thought of as amounting to "stealing."

Of course, the same way Hitler killing millions of Jews during the Holocaust was perfectly legal, the German government recognized it as a legal and fair act. Goes to show how faulty your logic is, huh? This isn't a question about legality, but morality,

YOU not me brought of LEGALITY. If you wanted to discuss MORALITY you should have said so instead of making the preposterous claim that our own nation was somehow built on "illegality." How can someone love America if her very existence is viewed as immoral? It's very unpatriotic.

"and if you tell me with a straight face that this country was built morally then you my friend are an idiot,"

First of all I'm not an idiot. Secondly you can't expect me not to behave like a smart-ass if you are going to stand there and argue that America's very existence is illegitimate. Sorry but that nonsense deserves the South Park treatment.

"If you need further proof simply look at Andrew Jackson. Seriously, manifest destiny? They pushed millions of Indians west so they could take their land that would later become "states"...and why, because God ordained us to?"

Your forgetting all of the wonderful benefits of western civilization we gave the Native American's in exchange though. What about modern medicine, constitutional law, a free market where you wouldn't have to barter for everything. Your view of America is very dim. You only see the bad and not all of the good we do and have done.

Johanan Raatz on Dec 15, 2007 at 06:34 PM:

"Assimilate. Good word. Except your definition in this case is "adapt to white, protestant culture"."

If by "white, protestant culture" you are referring to American culture then yes, and if so then it should be encouraged also. It's important that everyone shares the same general culture so society remains a cohesive whole and retains it's identity so it doesn't just become a bunch of broken parts lumped together inside an arbitrary border. If that was the case there would be no reason to have nations in the first place.

Another thing: American culture isn't just white protestant culture. It derives it's culture from a lot of sources. That's why it's called a "melting pot." It's not white, black, Hispanic or Native American culture it's American culture and it's what we all share.

"Now, if that is your definition of assimilate then you're right, they are doing a horrible job of it."

Well yes. So you actually WANT them to do a horrible job of it? That's not a very constructive thing to want.

"Hispanics are the 2nd largest group in the Unites States, so I would say for the most part they are assimilating just fine. They come here, they work,"

We'll so long as they are assimilating at a manageable pace I have no problem. I don't hate immigrants I just want to see them obey the laws and learn our way of life. If they do that I would love to have them come over. I just don't want them breaking the laws and refusing to assimilate.

"They come here and become consumers! If that isn't assimilation I don't know what is."

Well that is part of assimilation and that is good. Once again I don't have a problem with them coming here I just have a problem with them not assimilating and breaking our laws.

I think most Americans would agree with me here. After all we are a very hospitable people but we also are a law abiding people.

Joel on Dec 15, 2007 at 09:00 PM:

I don't even feel like wasting my time refuting your points, it's obvious you're a bigot and you use so many straw-man arguments that I think I'm better off convincing someone that the sky is green, Seriously, there are so many flaws with all of your arguments that it's actually quite amazing.

You've also brought up points that were completely demolished by myself and Omar, so want your rebuttle? Go reread the comments, I think the hypocrisy of this whole illegal immigration issue was covered quite well. All the issues you brought up were covered, including assimilation. And I'm not one to throw the race card for no good reason, but I'll be damned if your argument isn't fueled by racism and ignorance.

Johanan Raatz on Dec 15, 2007 at 10:34 PM:

"it's obvious you're a bigot"

Whoa slow down there. I've been called a lot of things before but never a bigot. If you read some of my other articles specifically my article on race you'll discover I am no bigot.
I just have problems with people breaking the law and otherwise misbehaving, but that isn't bigotry.

"You've also brought up points that were completely demolished by myself"

Well your arguments I haven't found to be very weighty, and you haven't responded to my latest posts so you haven't provided anything new.

"and Omar, so want your rebuttle?"

As for Omar's arguments. His seem more practical in nature. Which is fine with me. I understand there are many practical reasons to allow illegal immigrants to work here. I just wish they would go back and then come back in the proper way just like all of the other immigrants do.

Johanan Raatz on Dec 15, 2007 at 10:34 PM:

"it's obvious you're a bigot"

Whoa slow down there. I've been called a lot of things before but never a bigot. If you read some of my other articles specifically my article on race you'll discover I am no bigot.
I just have problems with people breaking the law and otherwise misbehaving, but that isn't bigotry.

"You've also brought up points that were completely demolished by myself"

Well your arguments I haven't found to be very weighty, and you haven't responded to my latest posts so you haven't provided anything new.

"and Omar, so want your rebuttle?"

As for Omar's arguments. His seem more practical in nature. Which is fine with me. I understand there are many practical reasons to allow illegal immigrants to work here. I just wish they would go back and then come back in the proper way just like all of the other immigrants do.

Adolf Hitler on Dec 16, 2007 at 01:12 AM:

Immigrants aren't human. If they were human they'd be white. Ja?

Joel on Dec 16, 2007 at 06:45 PM:

"Well no one is saying it is universal but it is based on personal experience, and yes we do have an official language. That was voted on a long time ago. It was a competition between English and German and English won by one vote. A nation benefits from a lingua franca as such it is in the national interest to maintain one."

Jesus, I hadn't even read that..if you needed further proof that Johanan has no God damn idea what he is talking about there you have it.

http://ask.yahoo.com/20011107.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English-only_movement

I get it now, you are from an alternate-reality where all of these fallacies you call points are actually valid, but here on Earth we call your entire presence here "retarded"

Joel on Dec 16, 2007 at 07:04 PM:

"Enslaving them? We didn't enslave them. Slavery was something that was done exclusively to people imported from Africa."

Why do I let the curiosity get the best of me? Why do I keep reading? Did you ever even PICK UP a middle school history book? Are you honestly being serious right now? God...I am seriously baffled right now.

Do you even know how the African slave trade came to America? A missionary whose names escapes me at the moment (I mean I DID learn this in 7th grade)made the suggestion that African slaves be used instead because they could better handle the physical labor instead (The Indians were destroyed by disease and exhaustion prompting the suggestion that Africans be used instead.)

You're seriously an idiot, especially since you bring up that the European demonization was nothing but propaganda. Propaganda...kind of like your whole input about illegal immigration in this topic! I guess propaganda only applies to things you disagree with, huh?

Seriously, I'm done with you. Your ignorance is astounding and you are not fit to discuss these manners. Seriously, your argument for the forced colonization because of the advancements it brought are on the same boat as arguing that Black people should be happy about slavery because now they live in the greatest country in the world instead of the hellhole that is Africa. Is it a valid point yes? Maybe. Is it a cop-out to cover up atrocities? Sure is.

I bet next thing you'll tell me is that slavery was exaggerated and that the slaves were actually treated well and loved their jobs, and that all the negativity towards the ante-bellum south is nothing but Confederate demonization and propaganda.

impeachment on Dec 17, 2007 at 05:59 PM:

Nicole Morales you are so full of crap. Director of inclusion until it's about including white people.

Maria on Dec 19, 2007 at 07:52 PM:

Current immigration trends in the United States have become an impetus for heated discussion, as the commentary on Dan Pesch's article proves. Sadly, my first criticism of the article has nothing to do with immigration.

Dan: if you wish to become an influential, thought provoking writer who criticizes that which you believe to be unjust, please consider the following...

1) Although you claim all immigrants aught to learn English, I was shocked that, as I read your article, I found more grammatical mistakes than a 4th grade persuasive essay. I implore you, before attacking those that, according to your standards, do not fulfill certain English linguistic requirements, learn English. Your errors made it difficult to take anything you say seriously. In fact, I laughed out loud at your poor command of your native language. If writing is to be the medium in which you communicate your beliefs to people, do not further embarrass yourself by displaying your ignorance on the very topic you wish to demonstrate your authority in.

2) The concern you expressed regarding loosing value on your tax dollars was valid perhaps ten years ago, before various private polling organizations did exhaustive research on this topic and found that you have nothing to fear (let us "call a spade a spade," so to speak, and define your apparent discontentedness as fear). Here again, you have demonstrated a complete lack of personal research on the topic. If this really mattered so much, why have you not read the many materials available on this very subject? To get you started, allow me to recommend some essential reading: -Thunderbird, the American Graduate School of International Management in June 2003 stated in their study that the state of Arizona alone "gets $8 billion in economic impact annually from the relationship [with Mexico]." It goes on to state that: "Mexican immigrants paid nearly $600 million in federal taxes and sales taxes in 2002...Mexican immigrants use about $250 million in social services such as Medicaid and food stamps... Another $31 million in uncompensated health care..." That means the United Stated receives a profit of $319 million. -Any economist will tell you that the undocumented immigrant population of the United States has significantly contributed to the country's wealth and stability. In fact, I urge you to read any one of the Economist's articles dealing with the topic of immigration in the US. In case you do not know, the Economist is an internationally renowned newsmagazine, published and distributed from the UK. In other words, to continue with your convoluted analogy of a "flood," you should look at this as a flood of dollars gushing into your domestic economy. -Perhaps you are beginning to see the contradictory nature of your article: you are concerned about the value of your dollars, the safety of your domestic economy, your tax dollars; yet at the same time, you wish to limit (even eradicate) the largest spending power in the country. -As though this were not an information to dispel the gross inaccuracies of your article, permit me to cite another scholarly source of actual data on this issue. UCLA's North American Integration and Development Center released a study that concludes "undocumented immigrants contributed at least $300 billion per year to the US gross domestic product (GDP)." Another scholarly source, "The Devil's Highway," (2004) a book by former Harvard professor Luis Alberto Urrea poses questions that may behoove you to ponder before sitting down to write another ill conceived (and grammatically lame) article: "How many toys. How many phone bills. How much in the poor box at church. How much for pencils, steaks, charcoal, glasses, panties, bras, bikes, skateboards, concerts, Blockbuster, Monisat, Head & Shoulders, Listerine. AOL. Computers. Backpacks. Uniforms. Night school" (page 217).

Dan: what you have proposed in your article as rhetorical questions seem to be actual questions. You have asked some important questions; pursue the answers.

Here is a question I have for you: as a student of the university of Wisconsin-Milwaukee (or at least a member of the community), have you not noticed that many of your professors are not native of the United States? Do you not realize that the university not only allows these professor to impart valuable knowledge to you (which you can then turn into marketable skills), the university seeks them out and hires them from overseas. Have you forgotten that fellow students are perhaps working on their "legal" status as they learn a language, a new culture, and get better grades than you, Dan, in English class?

As you say, you are "irritated" by the prospect of a "language barrier" at "home." But Dan, please consider how irritated I feel, a native of the United States and of English, being subjected to your unfathomably poor language skills...reading as you butcher my beautiful language, watching in horror as your failure to inadequately document your concerns... it is I who must suffer the irritation of your incoherent mutations of my language.

You complain about Americans not being able to get jobs in America because immigrants are upsetting the balance of labor. Please cite the source that published this slanderous inaccuracy. If it was you, Dan, who simply made this "fact" up off the top of your head, I ask you to review the Constitution of the United States of America where is states that Slander is indeed a serious offense. Even more illegal than not having a social security number.

And, Dan... yes. I do take offense. You are a disgrace to everything that this country was founded on and as a native US citizen, I much prefer deporting YOU than any one of millions of hard working immigrants who come here to make your life better.

I encourage your response to my post.

Dan Pesch on Dec 20, 2007 at 08:22 AM:

See what I don't understand is why so many latinos are taking what I wrote personally. I never once mentioned anything about a race. I find it funny that you're the ones who take it personally. Do you realize that we also have a border to the north or did you forget that? Oh yeah, and there are ILLEGAL immigrants coming through there as well. Now as for the point that was made about my ancestors being immigrant, that is partially true, at least for my dad's side, my mother is mostly Ojibwae which by the was is a Native American tribe from Wisconsin. And yes there were immigrants in my family but what separates me from you is that they went through the immigration process the legal way and worked tirelessly to become AMERICAN first and foremost because they realized how great this Country is and was and were willing to do whatever it took within the confines of law to become successful. See I refer to something called "law" and my question is that if a law exists, why should we provide ANYTHING to those who break them. We imprison people everyday for things such as robbery so why shouldn't we do the same to people who are here illegally I mean come on, they are breaking a law and why shouldn't they be treated the same as American Citizens who are breaking laws, after all it's the law and if they want so badly to be here than Throw them in prison. I say to you, they are robbing American citizens of work so to me, it only seems fair to imprison them. If they have a problem obeying the law than by all means, make them leave. And no, I have have not and will not forget my heritage but it is my proud birthright to call myself American, everything else, short of God, is second. I will never take for granted what my ancestors have done to get our family to where we are today. It is afterall the collection of my families that has helped mold me into the man I am today. There is only one flag that I will EVER fly in my yard, and that flag is of the U.S.A. All of you who support illegal immigration should be ashamed of yourselves. I have very little respect for people who support people when they continuously break the law. That to me is unacceptable. It disgusts me to hear people refer to illegal alians as "undocumented immigrants" that's that same as calling a drug dealer an unlicensed pharmicist. I have no problem with people who want to speak another language, heck I'm working on doing that same thing myself, my only point is that if you want to live here, learn English. I can't stand working with people who don't speak any English. it creates a language barrier where there should be none. You don't see me going to other countries expecting them to speak English, that sort of logic is rediculous. Why should people who are here illegally expect me to want to learn their language. As for being thin skinned, all of you who took this personally are. Learn how to read. Did I ever mention Latin America? No, not even once. See, I'm only wasting my time trying to explain a concept as easy as common sense to a group of liberals. It's almost a double negative to say that liberals have common sense. The two terms rarely seem to coexist. I find it rather funny that Miss Morales has the largest print. Do you seriously think that oversized text is going to make you sound any less rediculous? You call me ignorant and pathetic when really you're the one who's pathetic. You are getting overworked about a newspaper article. I'm glad to see that you're using those ever so wonderful reasoning skills of yours that I've heard so much about. Oh wait, that's right, liberals don't typical do very well in the area of reason and accountability. When people dissagree with you, instead of being reasonable and having a respectable discussion, you get pissed off and storm away with the ever so common response amongst the uninformed left of, "Oh I can't ever talk to you". Just because you can't control your emotions doesn't make me a "bad person" it only means that you can't control your emotions. I shouldn't expect you to understand where I'm coming from, after all, you think that we should just give and give and well give some more with very little concern for whose pocket it comes from. I should say that I've made my point loud and clear, if you all ever decide to start acting like adults, than I would be more than willing to sit down with anyone of you and have a respectful debate. I'm all about hearing what people have to say just as long as long they are willing to hear me. To me that sounds reasonable but then again, I'm also very conservative. Two things which by design go hand in hand. Well I have to go because I actually have things to accomplish on a daily basis aside from sitting online arguing behind a computer screen.

Truthfully and respectfully yours,

Dan Pesch

Maria on Dec 20, 2007 at 01:57 PM:

Dan: I invite you to read my previous post. It appears that you did not actually have time or interest in what I posted. This is unfortunate, as I rationally made responses to several of the questions you brought up in your original article. It was painfully apparent that you did not read my post because you restated each of the same inaccuracies in your subsequent post. I implore you to read my above post.

However, if you are too busy, I will summarize my musings, as I am more than willing to carry on a civil discussion with you regarding some of your misconceptions about the current immigration trends of the United States.

Your post expresses a desire to uphold the law. I applaud this sentiment and agree whole heartedly that law-breakers should be brought to justice. That will mean, however, prosecuting large-scale law breakers. Hard-working American farmers that employ workers of "illegal" (to use your term) status are breaking the law. American owners of American companies break the law when they hire workers of "illegal" status. These Americans are flaunting the American justice system, breaking laws repeatedly, and escaping any legal retribution. They are encouraging "illegal" immigration by providing work and incentive to people to come. As a result of the actions of these law-breaking Americans, immigrants come to this country illegally knowing that they will be hired, regardless of their legal status.

These Americans are lawbreakers that should be, to use your phrase "thrown in jail."

Again, you express your concern about language. And again I propose the same response: PLEASE LEARN ENGLISH YOURSELF. Your grammar, spelling, and syntax is appalling. In order to make your arguments decipherable on this important topic, in order to engage in the civil discussion you wish to engage in, you must learn to write and read English. Please read my previous post.

Dan: I am happy to learn you will proudly fly your American flag at home. I will, too. I love this country and I love my American culture. Nevertheless, I fear that you are a misinformed patriot. Allow me to remind you that immigrants do not come to the United States to tear down our Stars and Stripes and put up their own flag. They come here in awe of American culture, they want to discover what is behind such a flag. What does it mean to be American? What is America? I urge you to become a better ambassador for your country which you so adore; learn to teach people your customs, encourage them to learn English by learning it yourself, reach out by teaching people about the food you eat, the songs you sing and the values you hold. Learn about indigenous cultures from this great land, such as your Ojibwae heritage. If you really loved your country, you would learn more about it and desire to share who you are and where you are from with others.

As for being conservative, I myself am a fiscal conservative and there are many social issues upon which my views would be considered conservative. However, I believe you are confused as to what it means to be a conservative. Please review your terminology so that you can say something of substance rather than simply adopting labels that you then hide behind. Dan, the issue we are discussing is not about "conservative v. liberal." We are discussing current immigration trends in the United States. We are attempting to get to the bottom of the many inaccuracies you have posted for public consumption. My role in this discussion is merely to point out these inaccuracies, not argue about meaningless labels that you used to defend yourself when you felt outwitted.

Polarizing the discussion by making it a case of "me versus you" or "liberal versus conservative" does nothing to further anyone's depth of understanding regarding the issue being discussed.

Furthermore, if you are indeed a conservative, you would advocate less governmental intervention, less legislature, and more power to the dollar. In order to give power to the markets so that they may do what they do best which is regulate society, we must pay close attention to current popular trends; i.e. what groups of people have high levels of spending power? how can I access that spending power? how can that spending power be distributed to better society? These are the questions you, as a conservative, should be asking yourself.

Luckily, we have a case of "question asked and answered". A current popular trend of enormous spending power comes from the Mexican population. (I am using this as an example, I am aware there are many different nationalities immigrating to the US). Once more, I will quote to you the study done by Thunderbird:

"The total buying power of Arizona's Mexican immigrants is estimated at $4.18 billion dollars"

Think of all those dollars flooding into the US economy! And that impressive figure is only for the state of Arizona alone!

Think about all the jobs that this population has created for people like you, Dan! You could be taking advantage of the benefits of the spending power of the Mexican population rather than writing rants of poorly written accusatory remarks. Think hard about the jobs that have been created by this population: a growing need for interpreters in hospitals, schools, courts and law offices; a growing interest in Mexican literature (which means a need for translators); export/import arts and crafts businesses; Border Patrol Officers; immigration lawyers; farm owners; Western Union money wiring employees; researchers who study the Mexican population in the US; scholars who study immigration; economists; politicians... the job market is booming, Dan! You, too, should take advantage of the bull market by learning how to write and read so that one of these nobel professions will hire you, Dan! You're right, you do have better things to do than write inaccurate musings on immigration trends in the US. Especially since you clearly have no idea what the actual situation is, nor do you wish to read or respond to my posts that have been written with the sincere intent of educating you, not belittling you. Ignorance is not evil if you are willing to be educated. Do not let your ignorance turn into evil, Dan.

Dan Pesch on Dec 22, 2007 at 10:13 AM:

Maria, I'm glad that you're so willing to take the time out of your day to correct my grammer. I never claimed to be a perfect typist and the last time I checked, no one person in the world is perfect at even one language. My point in regards to Learning English is not for people to forget what they are or where they came from, it's simply that the entire country should learn to speak English. If we ended ILLEGAL immigration, than we wouldn't have a need for all these excess professions. I completely support punishing businesses that are employing illegal immigrants. If the punishment for hiring illegal immigrants were prison time, than hopefully employers would get the point and stop hiring them. In turn I would only hope that by doing this we could discourage people from coming here illegally looking for work or a place to live. There is a legal process that anyone can go through to become citizens, one in which I fully support by the way. I don't see why you people take what I say personally. I never once said that we should stop latinos from coming here. A comment like that would be completely innappropriate. Why don't we shift our focus for a moment on the illegal immigrants coming in from the north. There are people from all over the world coming here illegally from Canada but the only difference is that they (most of the time) speak english rather fluently so it's harder to point them out in public. And why do you feel the need to say my name continuously at the end of your sentences? The last time I checked, I knew my name, even though I'm flattered that you like to say it repeatedly, it's unnessessary. I do believe in less government but I also believe that rule only applies to U.S. citizens. Illegal immigrants do not, and should never, share the same rights as Americans. If they want them so badly, let them come here legally or fight for them in their own DAMNED countries. Allowing this problem to continue is completely irresponsible as Americans. That's another probelm with liberals is that you all believe that we should just give and give no matter the cost. Just because I make more money doesn't mean that more of my money should be given to people who do not deserve it. I'm all about giving so long as people deserve it. I love donating money to orgs. such as the C.A.P.P. FUND because they deserve it. I should not however, be taxed more to benefit the lazy and the criminal. We could go back and forth on that issue all day but that is not what we are here to discuss. Well, I am going to have to cut this short because I actually have to be productive on a day to day basis unlike the rest of you. Have fun sitting behind your computer screens getting pissed off at me because you are doing exactly what I want you to. While you have no lives, I will be achieving something today. I anticipate hearing your psyco babble some more so please, by all means, keep it coming.

On a completly different note, I wish you all A very blessed advent and I merry Christmas because after all, there is no Christmas without Christ. Best of luck to you all and best wishes for a most successful new years.

As always, truthfully yours,

Daniel Pesch

Vic Venomous on Jan 01, 2008 at 05:15 PM:

There's also no Christmas without the pagan holidays and traditions the Christians co-opted, big fella.

Julie Schultz on Jan 03, 2008 at 09:51 AM:

I was very happy to hear the opposing views of your article "How to stop a flood". Your view on immigrants taking our money is correct, but your wrong in thinking it is just coming from the south of our border. It IS primarly the people from India, Israel. The government allows them to purchase gas stations, mini-marts, and other businesses. They are allowed to stay here and test their business for at least two to seven years without having to pay any taxes. They are tax exempt for food (groceries),and their business. They also cannot speak good English along with Russians. (I live in community of Russian people who can barely understand or speak English)(I do not know where they work or how they survive here in America) So you see, you are VERY WRONG in pointing your finger and accusing JUST the people south of the border. It would be nice if you did research before you print your opinion to see if your opinion is totally correct. In closing, I do agree that immigrants should pay taxes on their businesses, food and groceries. However, I disagree that the Mexicans are the ones stealing from us. Due to the fact that the people from India and Israel have been coming here for over 30 years to build businesses tax free and buying food, groceries, and gas with a tax-exempt ID number from the USA Government. So please retract your opinion THAT Mexican people are the ones that infringe on our benefits. Thank you for allowing me to express my opinion to you.

Amanda Throm on Jan 06, 2008 at 09:54 PM:

Dan as a fellow Postie, I'd like to stick up for you...however, you should realize that some of what you say makes no sense and has not weight behind it...

There is no national language in America so your stating that everyone should learn English is a bit of a double edged sword. You cannot make a person learn English when it isn't the native language of the country.

I also don't understand why you're being so condescending towards the people who are voicing their opinions... True some of them may not be politically correct or in your favor but I honestly don't understand where you're coming from saying that your ancestors, the Native Americans, tried tirelessly to become Americans when they were, in fact, there in the first place. The Native Americans were, if nothing, pushed around; they were moved from their homes and killed because the Europeans brought in sickness and new viruses that had never appeared in America before. I don't understand why you say the Native Americans fought to become Americans... it's just a little redundant.

You state, "I mean come on, they are breaking a law and why shouldn't they be treated the same as American Citizens who are breaking laws" Isn't that a little redundant... if you're telling illegal immigrants that they're obviously not Americans, why should they be treated as such?

"You don't see me going to other countries expecting them to speak English, that sort of logic is ridiculous" True, but what are the odds that if you went to China, you'd be asking random people if they spoke English?

You do realize that English is the hardest language in the world to learn?

You also state, "Illegal immigrants do not, and should never, share the same rights as Americans. If they want them so badly, let them come here legally or fight for them in their own DAMNED countries." I'll make it a point to tell you, since I just wrote a research paper on WOMEN in illegal immigration, that females are predominantly immigrating from countries where they are NOT ALLOWED TO SPEAK, let alone leave their houses or even live without the permission of a man. How do you expect them to help their own countries when they cannot even have a life without a man telling them what to do?

Also, "It's almost a double negative to say that liberals have common sense. The two terms rarely seem to coexist" I hope you realize that your statement was incredibly politically INCORRECT while obviously your own opinion. And while I applaud the onus it must take to write for a predominantly LIBERAL newspaper, and I understand that what you're writing is an editorial, there is no need to be libelous toward an entire political party; especially while it has nothing to do with your argument; aside from the fact that the Liberal party is concentrating on better things than illegal immigration.